User talk:Nortmannus

Welcome to Wikipedia. If you don't mind my asking, what university are you located at? As an undergraduate I specialized in Norman History (particularly the formative period: 911–1066). The Jade Knight (talk) 07:27, 22 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Raide bein! Tu préches un mio d'Nouormand, don. J'apprends l'Jèrriais, mé. Sai-tu tch'i y a eune Ouitchipédie Nouormande? I contribute there where I can, but my ability to write in Norman is quite poor. You and I have a similar education: I graduated in History and English. For you, it may not seem like much to live in Normandy, but I dream of even visiting. I'm Norman through and through, and I've never even set foot in Normandy! J'aimerais bien toujours parler davantage de Normandie ou le Moyen Âge. The Jade Knight (talk) 14:26, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Congradulations!

Congradulations on Norman Toponymy. You have done a wonderful job so far, and I see that you have placed a lot of work and energy in this great piece. Tell me, what do you think of the old norse word Vir Kit which meant dwelling? Do you feel it could have transformed the end word from vir to ville, since you find so many in Normandy. I had read this about Viking history, a few years ago in the USA. However, I cannot find it anymore, but I did find the word vir kit. What do you think? Thanks for your cooperation Nortmannus! --Chnou (talk) 03:15, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Celts

Hi. I wrote a response on your “three linguistic facts”, in the Celts Talk Page. I hope you can find it interesting: I love toponymy (and onomastics and etymology and...) also :-)
I f you find any point confusing or need any further reference, ask for it. I'll be pleased answering.
Cheers. Froaringus (talk) 18:19, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

--- Hi again, Nortmannus.. Thank you very much for your answers and commentaries: I understood you were being constructive in your objections, and that was the reason because I leave you the note. Also, being sceptical is just OK for me. I love questions rather than answers :-)

On Western Romance lenition, no I'm not sure at all that it has its origin in Celtic -I guess this is one of the oldest and most debated questions about de evolution of Romance languages, and I don't have the solution to it. But, yes, I support this hypothesis for several motives, one being that the phonetic processes that appear to be operating on the pre-Latin language(s) of Galicia, are very similar to some of those operating in Galician and in North-Western Iberia, in General:

i.- /kt/, /pt/> /jt/:

We have AMBATUS, RETUGENUS in Latin inscriptions ( < *Ambactos, *Rectugenos) which shows that something has happen with the consonant group in these Celtic names (I guess the people who wrote that didn't know how to represent the new sounds).
In the Historia Gothorum of Isidorus of Seville, he wrote that Tecti was the name the Visigoths used for themselves: we clearly have here an inverse notation for a diphthong unknown in Latin, so Tecti must stand for Teiti, or (well, it's not mistery) for Teuti.
Anyway, today Galician have leite [lejte] < *laite < LACTE, but also couto [cowto] “closed land” < cautu < CAPTU. We have also a village called Cospeito, capital of its municipality, from Latin CONSPECTUM “Eminent” (it's in a hill, in the middle of a large swampy area). It's the same word we find in a Latin inscription from Gaul: ERECURE [S]EXTILIUS COSPEITUS. Isn't it at least a bit surprising after all that the same word evolve in the same form in two different linguistic contexts (Latin under Gaulish influence, and medieval Galician Latin under....)? I know it's not an answer, but it is a question :-)

ii.- /ks/, /ps/ > /js/:

C(ASTELLUS) AVILIOBRIS < *-brixs < *-brigs.
In an original royal charter from 775, issued in Galicia, it can be read “per illas sasas alvas” (for “per illas saxas albas”), where sasas is there for [saxsas] or [sajsas] ( < Lat. SAXUM 'stone'. Today's Galician word is seixo [sejtʃo], pretty common in toponymy, not that frequent in speech (and mostly unknown in Spanish).
Today's Galician have caixa < CAPSA, and the frequent toponym Requeixo ( < *RECAPSUM “re-closed”

iii.- /g/ lenition:

while we have mezukenos in Celtiberian script (for Methugenos), in Galicia we have the name MEDVENVS.
In the Parochiale Suevorum, a document from the VII-IX century which copies and resumes a Suevic times ecclesiastical division, we read place names like Torobria ( < TUROBRIGA), Tongobria ( < TONGOBRIGA), Geurros ( < GIGURROS)...

iv.- /d/ lenition:

The Celtiberian script mezukenos (Methugenos) corresponds to Latin script MEDUGENUS. The grapheme z is used also for the result of a sonorized sibilant. So /d/ was not longer a stop between vowels, but maybe an approximant, as it is today.

V.- Sonorization of /t/ is evident in NIMIDI ( < NEMETI), among other cases. What I don't know is if this d was or not a stop.

Well, etc... I don't pretend to mean that Galician is some kind of Celtic offspring. In fact, if we only take as account the lexicon of the language, then it's more like 90% Vulgar Latin, 4% French/Occitan, 2% Germanic -Suevi, Goths, and Germanisms incorporated into Western Vulgar Latin, not counting Frankish or Nordic word taken from French, 2% pre-Latin, 1% English, 1% Arab/Berber... (don't take these numbers too seriously), but that Galician (and also Portuguese, Asturian, and Castilian Spanish) has really passed for most of the phonetic processes that are attributed (correctly or not) to Celtic substratum. All, right, that simply means that Galician is part of the Western Romance group of languages.

On garganta, well, I know it's not Celtic, a priori, because of the g, but I get that the only cognates of this family of words, gargant-, is in the proto-Celtic *bargant-... An that is really interesting, I think.

On virar, we have the testimony of Pliny, who says that among Celtiberians their usual bracelets were named viria. In Galician warrior statues and archaeological findings confirm the existence of these viria, so I understand that what is debatable about them is the etymology. Anyway, Galician virar “to turn, to roll” (and revirar, devirar, envirar, trasvirar, reviravolta, tanxevira, viradura, viranza...) could not came from Latin VIBRARE (-Vbr- [βɾ] group in Galicia is solid as a rock).

Whell-sack is... oh, well, wheel-sack... Lol, sorry. So rodaballo, rodoballo “turbot” < Rot-V-ball-yon “*Round-Bag” (because of the characteristic rounded form of this plane fish?).

---

On trees and vegetable names and toponymy, there's an interesting book (free pdf on-line here: http://www.onomastico.org/descargas/Fitotoponimia_galega.pdf). Fitotoponimia Galega. It's in Galician, and it's far more of what most would ever want to know about Galician fitotoponomy, lol, but I really thing it's a nice book for having in one's virtual shelves. At least for comparative reasons. All right, Galician is mother tongue, so for me is enjoyable. Some answers: Gl teixo [tejtſo] < VLat TAXU
Gl abeleira (dialectal: abelaira, abraira...) < Abellanaria, form Latin "nux Abellana".
Gl pradeiro (d. pradairo, pedrairo...) (Acer psedoplatanus) < *Platanariu (Greek?)

As you say, most Galician tree names are Latin (or Roman, because some are originally Greek), but there are a few pre-Latin ones:

Gl carballo [kar'βaλo]. It's per se a derivative *CARB-ALIU from carba “small oak, bush, stump, timber”, (maybe from PIE *(s)ker- “to cut”? Mir cerb `sharp, incisive', cer(b)aim `cut, bite'; cymr. crafu `scratch, scrape, rub, ausbeuten', cf. IEW s.v. *(s)ker-4). The oak was historically in Galicia the most common tree, and apparently this word carballo would simply be a derivative of “timber”. Maybe related to PClt *karbanton “chariot”, as something made of (cut) wood? (cf. arg- “to shine”, arganton “brilliant = silver”). Carpenter is a man who works with wood. So, carballo is probably IE, and plausibly Celtic, although it originally meant something more like 'timber' better than “oak”.
Gl Ameneiro, Amieiro, Abeneiro, Umieiro (alnus glutinosa, alder). The most common forms came from *Abennariu, *Amennariu, romance derivatives of *Abenno, *Amenno (cf. Celtic abon- “river”, Latin amnis). Both Abenno and Amenno present a -n- sufix, like PClt Aballo- 'apple-tree” from Abalo- “apple” + -n- (cf. Matasovic). So Ameneiro / Abeneiro are romance word proceeding from a IE (maybe Celtic) *abVn-n- “Water-Tree”. There's a place called Abanante in Galicia, which must derive from *Abannanti “(where) the valley/brook of the *Abannos”? It 's very similar to the medieval toponomy Ebronanto “Valley of the Yews”.
GL Bidueiro, Biduo,... (birch) < BETULA, *BETULARIU. It's Celtic.
GL Lamigueiro, lamagueiro (Celtis Australis): from LAM-AC-ARIU / LAM-IC-ARIU, from lama “meadow”, Galician word of debated origin (but probably IE, maybe even Celtic, *lama = palm).

Pre-Latin names are much more frequent among bushes (cf. toxo < togio ulex Europeus).

Regards, and Good Night, friend. – Froaringus (talk) 20:00, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Juniper

Hi, I have tried to rewrite your contributions here to fit more consistently into the article Juniper (given name). Please check my work if you have time. - Fayenatic (talk) 13:26, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Normans

Thank you for your knowledgeable post at the Normans piece. Most interesting. I can see your point about the Canadian angle too. Best, MarmadukePercy (talk) 19:46, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ogier van Busbeke

Hello,

I recently reverted this edit, because:

There is no Romance language called 'Flemish'.
You have already been given a source (ohn P. Considine, Dictionaries in early modern Europe, p. 140) stating that this man was a native Dutch speaker.
As a diplomat (who happened to be from Komen, but that's not really important here) he would have known French. However, why would French as a second language possibly influence his perception of Crimean Gothic? (Also, see .1, you have no source for this claim)

Cheers, G.Burggraaf (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Norman Toponymy

Hi, I see you removed the {{dablinks}} maintenance template from Norman Toponymy. You're right; most of those links are intentional dablinks. But that isn't a problem; we can tag them as such per WP:INTDABLINK. --JaGa^talk 00:09, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the note. I'll take a look at it when I get a chance. Cheers, --JaGa^talk 06:48, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

English

Please note that on English Wikipedia all communication should be in English, so that the whole community can follow it. It is a mistake to think that anything you write is a private communication, and that therefore only the person it is addressed to needs to understand it. Even a message addressed ostensibly to one person (such as this message, addressed to you) should be available for others to understand. This is especially important in the case of messages to troublesome editors, as a record of what warnings and advice they have received in the past may be of importance in assessing how to deal with them in the future. If you do find it necessary or desirable to write in French (or any other language) then please also provide an English translation. JamesBWatson (talk) 11:11, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Celtic cross

Salut Nortmannus! C'est bon que si tu ne me comprends pas en anglais, je pourrais te parler en français! I'm sur that you still remember me J, I'm the user who added a map of the celtic population on Europe. Effectively, I have been wrong, i was sloppy. But perhaps you can help me whit this, that I aimed was explain a justification of the link with the Celtic cross that white-supremacistes have made. C'est à dire, la commoune ascendence celte de la plupart des peuples européenes.

I leave you best regards
and I thank you very much

PS: You cant write me such as english as french.

Votre serveur
-- Mel ^{God zij met u} 19:06, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your answer Nortmannus! I remember to have read that I said somewhere, but without references it 's certainly too for to put. Au révoir! -- Mel

^{God zij met u} 02:19, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Harvey/Herve

Help!!!

Why is Wikipedia, (the only source that can be edited) the only reference on the Internet that I can find that displays Harvey/Herve as meaning 'Iron' 'Blazing', every other source displays it as 'Battle' 'Worthy'??? Can you provide a conclusive link/evidence rather than stating that is is obviously derived from... yet no evidence. The link to the Dictionnaire de la langue gauloise, éditions errance 2003. p. 192 is broken and cannot be confirmed.

Ursuline Convent

Thanks for adding material to the Ursuline Convent New Orleans article. Your text had some strange formating, and references to images not in the article as "first image" and "second image". Is your text from some other website? If so, where? Wondering, Infrogmation (talk) 18:46, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Gaul

You should probably exercise some caution with regard to WP:3RR. Unfortunately, it applies whether or not you're right, so this is an entirely friendly reminder. I'm posting a note at the other user's talk page as well. Cynwolfe (talk) 22:33, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

List of French words of Gaulish origin

Look after your neurosis instead.Brikane (talk) 13:10, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nortmannus does excellent work! This type of degradation is not acceptable in Wikipedia.--Varing (talk) 03:37, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject Normandy; WikiProject Norman history; WikiProject Norman language

Nortmannus we need your help! Iberville and I want to keep the 3 projects alive, but as you can see, we are having opposition. Do you think you could help us keep the projects alive by voting in favor of keeping them. Your cooperation on our behalf would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! Merci!--Varing (talk) 03:40, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:WikiProject Normandy

The content of these pages do not belong in the Project namespace, they are essentially copies of the leads from their main namespace equivalents. These seem to have been recently created from red-links on Portal:Normandy for desired WikiProjects, but I have contacted their creator and they do not appear to have the desire to actually turn these into real WikiProjects. Zangar (talk) 15:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are very quick to say I have no desire to actual turn these into real WikiProjects. It was only two days ago that you mentioned this to me. I happen to work 5-6 days a week, and I need a little more time to get the WikiProjects underway. You could at least give me until the end of the month. Thank you!--Iberville (talk) 00:40, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete all. Obviously a misunderstanding. If Iberville wants to start a project, he/she should read Wikipedia:WikiProject and make a proposal here. Present pages are just text per nom. --Klein zach 02:21, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, though only because they are not actually project pages but content forks of articles from mainspace. Projects do not need to be proposed as Wikipedia:WikiProject Council has no more authority than anyone else over which projects are created. Proposing it may indicate interest in the porject, but it is not required to propose it prior to creation. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 05:26, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete just a fork- that said its a big topic and if there are several editors interested in the topic I can set up the project properly for them.Moxy (talk) 19:08, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Once again now WikiProjects should not be set up without going through a proper proposal process to gather support for the collaboration. Making colourful Wiki pages may seem like a lot of fun, but making 'Potemkin villages' of projects that have no substance wastes the time of would-be contributors, and thereby harms the encyclopaedia. In this case, Normandy is almost certainly too narrow a topic to be sustainable as a WikiProject. --Klein zach 00:16, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Really? Too narrow a topic with more than 1100 years of history, 3.5 million people, and descendants of Vikings. Who never heard of the Norman conquest of England of 1066, which shaped the english language in what it is today and the history of England as well.--Varing (talk) 03:14, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Move of Thomas Müller

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Reply

Just to say that I've moved your query to my talk page and replied there. Hchc2009 (talk) 09:35, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Rollo

Please do not remove a maintenance template like you did here, without fixing the problem. Thank you. --Saddhiyama (talk) 01:29, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is a wrong information. That's ambigous : it is sure that the limit of Bessin is the Vire river (the Northern part and the estuary, but the entire Vire course (and the bocage virois) was not given to Rollo. Only Bessin and Hiémois were added to the original properties of Rollo in Neustria, after the campaign lead by the king of the Franks against him in 924. According to me the reference to Vire must be suppressed. And please do not suppress sourced material about well-known facts.

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History of French

I've noticed the claim in this section that the suffix -ois/-ais (< OF -eis) comes from Frankish -isk, but according to what I've always heard, -eis derives (via VL -ēse) from Latin -ensis/-ensem, while the French suffix which actually derives from -isk is -esque. Only in français and François (< OF franceis), the suffix -isk of frankisk was replaced by the native suffix -eis (perhaps -esque is a later loan, possibly from Spanish or Italian -esco, and was not used in OF yet). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:24, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Florian, I did not write this part, as far as I know, maybe I do not remember, but I would not have written that this way. There are two different suffixes in the ethnic names in French with two different etymologies (VL -ēse and OLF *-isk), that is the reason why some ethnic names are in -ois : danois, gallois, chinois, etc. and others in -ais : irlandais (OF irois), portugais, hollandais, etc. There is a confusion between the two suffixes. The feminine form of the -eis / -ois adjectives in OF was -esche : danesche cf. la danesche parleure 'the Danish language', more danico = la danesche manere, englesche cf. la gent englesche 'the English' (Chanson de Roland), all replaced later by -oise or -aise. Yes, the suffix -esque was borrowed from Italian -esco in the 16th, when words ending this way were borrowed : pittoresco > pittoresque. The Norman-Picard -esque (corresponding to OF -esche) does not seem to have something to do with that : it is only found in toponyms nowadays, such as Englesqueville, Anglesqueville. See this long explanation for example. Nortmannus (talk) 22:32, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! I have already replied on my own page now; I think it would be better to continue there. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:11, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Robin Hood (2010 film)

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A vote for consensus on main article

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Warelwast

I've got a question for you at Talk:William_Warelwast#Note. Could you take a look? Srnec (talk) 00:26, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Duchy of Brittany

I am interested in your comment concerning the idea that half of the Norman invasion of England in 1066 was Norman. Perhaps. It was not the main goal of the comments here. This article is about the Duchy of Brittany, not England and not Normandy. I think what we are trying to do is to document the Breton involvement in the Norman invasion of England. It sets the stage for several centuries of interrelationships between Brittany, England and France. See for example the Earl of Richmond article where I have had more time to document the breton percentage contribution to the Norman invasion of England. Do you agree with Price's research on the approximate percentage representation of the Bretons in Williams' army ? If you disagree can you provide referenced material for the alternative view, if any exists ? Thanks for discussing Breizhtalk (talk) 04:26, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Dieppe, Seine-Maritime

Hi. In my opinion this page should be at Dieppe and the others moved to Dieppe (disambiguation). As far as I'm concerned the Dieppe is the one in northern France. Any objections to me requesting a page move? If you could let me know on my talk page I'd be grateful. Thanks!♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 14:34, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I agree with you Dr. Blofeld. Regards.Nortmannus (talk) 19:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can you comment at Talk:Dieppe then? Cheers. BTW if you are interested in getting Rouen up to GA status let me know, Calais and Paris are now GA so why not! ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 20:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Pomeroy

Thanks for your interest in making changes to the article of the surname.  I'd think perhaps reading the original two websites listed and the AA Pomeroy book before making changes with outdated or unreliable sources may have been helpful.   It's a sad thing when a family name is disgraced by people unwilling to research properly and have some better then though attitude.  The name , heritage and lineage has been disputed originally when AA Poms book came out a 100 years ago and the anti-Pomeroy gang is clearly represented on Wikipedia , no wonder our elders refused to write the very long history of the family here and the hundreds of Famous Pomeroy's , who aren't listed here.  It's sad when a relatively good source for information has people writing about things they don't research and use info that's unreliable or outdated.    Lets make this point perfectly clear the first Pomeroy was Radulphus de la Pommeroi or similar spelling which he was given in 1066.  His fathers name was Roger Cheevers or Chivre.  Roger Pomeroy 960 ? Good work , get back in there and fix it. You screwed it up after it had been fixed from another idiot who screwed it up.   Check the original websites , read the book and do some research before screwing around with people's lineage.  Again I ask that you read up to date research from the original sources and maybe even listen to the National Archives lecture by Chris Pomery / Pomeroy and get what you've wrote off here as it is not correct  and does not reflect the up to date research that was used in the original article.  I refuse to correct this again and refuse to write any articles on Wikipedia due to these idiot editors who think they know better when indeed they use garbage links with out dated garbage as sources as opposed to original documents.   NO POMEROY OR DE LA POMMERAYE EXISTED PRIOR TO RADULPHUS AND NO OTHER LINES EXIST.  ALL POMS ARE DESCENDED FROM RADULPHUS AND NO OTHER LINES EXIST.  THAT IS A FACT AND PROVEN WITH DNA EVIDENCE.   THE FAMILY INDEED DOES DNA RESEARCH. THE POMEROY FAMILY ALSO HAS LINKED ALL BRANCHES IN AN ANNUAL REPORT SENT TO MEMBERS .....   Maybe after years of research you too can write about the name properly. Respect will be given when it is shown.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.67.175.88 (talk) 09:32, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Salut

Hello. I've noticed that you have edited multiple pages regarding the surname Loupe. Here is a link to a source regarding the etymology of Loupe. It is, indeed, a French surname derived from the French word loup. Afro-Eurasian (talk) 04:58, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bonjour. Not relevant. There is no French surname Loupé, according to the French dictionaries of stock French surnames I own, and Loupe does not have anything to do with that, it means : it would mean female form of Loup, that is to say loup + -e meaning female in French from Latin -a. It is not the case female form is louve, not loupe. In French, intervocalic -p- turned always to -v-. Such sites you mention do not know anything about that, because there are not written by specialists. RegardsNortmannus (talk) 10:25, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your knowledge on the subject. I have a question, though. What would be the French equivalent of a surname meaning "Son of the Wolf"? For example, in Spanish it would be Lopez, and in Romanian it would be Lupescu. I'm curious about it specifically meaning "Son of" instead of "Little", unless in French "Little Wolf" would be the proper way of saying it, similar to "Jr." in English. P.S. Pardon my lack of knowledge regarding surnames and etymology. Afro-Eurasian (talk) 11:30, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again and thanks for your compliments. It does not exist, that is a Spanish and Rumanian tradition, not a French one. There were only some rare regions (Berry, Bourbonais and Lyonnais) where such a thing existed, but at a very limited extension. People used to put a A- (that is to say "fils A" "son of") Ageorges, Ajean, Aguillaume, Acolas. When it was already a surname or a female name, people put Ala- : Alacoque, Alabergère, etc. It is extremely rare, I never met somebody with such a surname. In the region, where I am from : it does not exist at all ! CheersNortmannus (talk) 11:49, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	Best regards, Afro-Eurasian (talk) 11:34, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Huttoft‎‎

Hi, can you show me where the contradiction to MOS:ITALICS and MOS:ITAL says that "ancient forms are in italics in books" ? Emphasis here is hardly needed I think as the sense is clear and we are not clarifying a term. The Huttoft name in Domesday is clearly a copy from the actual source, therefore would be a quote - quotes are in quote marks. If you think I am wrong, please point me to the appropriate guidelines. Thanks. Acabashi (talk) 02:54, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Siege of the Mount

Bonjour Nortmannus- I saw your revert to the anonymous edit of Mont Saint-Michel. I thought the IP editor's version reads better, but I wanted to check with you before reverting it back. Also, are you familiar with the story being told in that paragraph? It is unclear and disjointed as it reads now. Where it reads "...extended to the buildings," is that referring to the fire having spread from the village to the abbey? And do you know what "the exactions" refers to? I see no material preceding that statement that explains it. Please move this to the article's discussion page if you think that's best. I'll watch there and here. Cordialement, Eric ^talk 00:05, 24 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Berck

I have reversed your change to this entry, largely because the possibility (and only that) is referenced on a French site. Your assertion that there are no place names derived from Old Norse outside Normandy is wrong in any case. Most importantly there was the old Viking trading town of Quentovic outside Etaples. I think in concentrating on 'Norman' settlement, you may be overlooking the importance of Viking trade-routes and their possible influence on coastal names. Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 15:14, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly not, no specialist of the toponymy from Auguste Longnon, Auguste Vincent, Maurits Gysseling, Albert Dauzat to François de Beaurepaire, etc. would support such a fringe theory. The old forms of the name are perfectly clear. Phonetically, it is not relevant : bekkr would have lost the final /r/ like it is in all the Scandinavian place names in -beck, -bæk, the English place names in -beck and the Norman place names in -bec. The Viking trade routes did not change local toponymy in Flanders, some names were adapted, but their etymology is clearly Old Low Franconian, Old Saxon (or Anglo-Saxon) and Dutch.Nortmannus (talk) 17:52, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Quentovic is not a Scandinavian place-name, it is already attested a long time before the Viking age, such as Cuentawic (in 755 - 758) and diverse Latin document as a vicus Maurits Gysseling [1]

I tried deleting the remark above. Obviously I failed. There's a reply on my talk page now. Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 20:55, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Roy - Surname

I have noticed you have been undoing the cited sources of the Roy page surname with information that is not correct.

1. You continuously cite the word "Viceroy" as a means of justifying removing Surname Dictionary sources. Viceroy is a position that was created in the in the 15th-16th C. from Latin "Vice" & "Roy". Roy has been cited in multiple sources as also have come from Old French rey, roy. ^[1] The title having been created in that time does NOT mean that Roy suddenly appeared there. The sources indicate it is Old French as is "rey", "roy", "roi" and even "rei". The Normans spoke a wide range of Northern French dialects and the usage in England is listed as Norman in multiple sources as a family name.

2. The Norman Language & Anglo-Norman language pages both indicate with cited sources that Roy is NORMAN. And that Norman can be seen in parliamentary proceedings in the UK that state is as Norman. "Le Roy le veult" The Surname dictionary also indicates this by stating "English (of Norman origin)". In fact, the sources indicate that is was used back in the 13th century in Ireland and that kings retained the Old Norman language when they give royal assent in English.^[2]

3. This page is a surname and family name that has dictionaries that specify it as Old French and of Norman Origin in England. We have royal assent and usage in England consistent with multiple sources that specify it as Old Norman and that the origin of the word is also listed appropriately in the page.

"In Anglo-Norman England, the name derived from the Norman roy, meaning "king",[1] while its Old French source rey, roy, roi (from Latin rex), likewise gave rise to Roy in the Francophone world."

This is Anglo-Norman England that is being referred to, and its Old French source is consistent with the sources that state it is Norman French.

Viceroy is a position created at a later date and not where the name can be sourced from. It is like saying that someone who has the Roy surname (myself) suddenly attributes it all from from the surname of Fitzroy. This is wrong and a SEPERATE word/name.

Fitzroy Name Meaning "Irish: Anglo-Norman French patronymic from fi(t)z ‘son’ (see Fitz ) + Roy ‘king son of the king’."

--- Source: Dictionary of American Family Names 2nd edition, 2022 --- 209.35.39.169 (talk) 16:35, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't like to talk to an "IP", but never mind. Your dictionnary states something wrong the -y spelling was almost never used in such a context in Old French, the later roy, was rei in Old French, if you had read the source I gave, you would have noticed the first attested forms of "roi" with an -i, like in Modern French (the -y became the regular spelling only in Middle French) : rei (St Léger, éd. J. Linskill, 14) 10th century; ca 1170 les livres des rois (Rois, éd. E. R. Curtius, p. 173); ca 1145 reis de majesté (Wace - NORMAN writer - Conception N.D., éd. W. R. Ashford, 635 NORMAN writer); 1155 Rei de glorie, then 13th century : roi des hiraus (Jakemes, Castelain de Couci, 2002, ibid.); 1269-78 roi des ribauz, etc. The -y became only regular in the spelling of the 16th century, so in Middle French, before being abandoned in Modern French. The Norman form is regularly rei, /ei/ instead of /oi/ is a well-known caracteristics of the Western Oil dialects, including Norman, of course a personality like the king got a Central French form earlier, because it was the language of the king. The Online Etymology Dictionary says the same thing (of course). Viceroy : person ruling as representative of a sovereign, 1520s, from French vice-roy, from Old French' vice- "deputy" (see vice-) + roi "king" [2]. Have a good night.Nortmannus (talk) 20:41, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

16th century? Artwork alone has you mistaken. Multiple sources besides the surname dictionary state otherwise:

"whereas by about 1330 it had become du roi (as in modern French) or du roy."

- The Eyre of Northamptonshire, 3-4 Edward III, A.D. 1329-1330 (Du/Le Roy, Roi and even Rey)

[3]https://books.google.ca/books?redir_esc=y&id=b8AIAQAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=roy

Original manuscript from the reign of Edward I. Preserved in the British Museum and cited as Anglo-Norman, completely refuting your claim with original manuscripts Cotton MS Vitellius A XIII/1 "Eight miniatures of the kings of England from Edward the Confessor (r. 1042–1066) to Edward I (r. 1272–1307); each one except the last is accompanied by a short account of their reign in Anglo-Norman prose." "Roy Phillipe de Fraunce" "en englerere: le Roy Jon regna." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.35.39.169 (talk) 19:38, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please also see Le Roy from manuscripts taken from the British Library (Nova Statuta for Edward III England, S. E. (London?); c. 1392 Language: Latin and French Source/Shelfmark: Arundel 331, f.22)

Historiated initial 'C'(ome) of King Edward III, crowned with a sceptre on a throne, and a full border with a dragon, at the beginning of the first statute of Edward III

This is far before the 16th century as you are claiming. And this is within the period of the ANGLO-NORMAN timeframe sourced below.

William Bruges’ Garter Book Manuscript (Languages : Anglo-Norman)

Please also see Edward III of England (Edward III of England & This manuscript artwork done in 1400's that literally identify the English King as ROY An illuminated manuscript miniature,c.1430-1440, of Edward III of England (1327-1377).

"The languages and literature of the Channel Islands are sometimes referred to as Anglo-Norman, but that usage is derived from the French name for the islands: les îles anglo-normandes. The variety of French spoken in the islands is related to the modern Norman language, and distinct from the Anglo-Norman of medieval England."

Notice when you cited Wace, you are forgetting this is not the Anglo-Norman spoken in medieval England. The wording says distinct from the Anglo-Norman of medieval England.

"Your dictionary states something wrong".

This is from Professors who are experts on Eytmology and leading experts in Medieval surname history. I'm sorry, but you just saying they are wrong is not academic. It is not "my" dictionary, it is professors in the field. Add to that a King of England in a manuscript art dated historically to the Anglo-Norman Kings of England literally says "ROY', with supporting bibliographies like "Ruth J. Dean and Maureen B. M. Boulton, Anglo-Norman Literature: A Guide to Texts and Manuscripts, Anglo-Norman Text Society, Occasional Publications Series, 3 (London: Anglo-Norman Text Society, 1999), no. 391.1." This is not a mistake.British Library - Catalogue of Illuminated Manuscripts

Multiple professors and leading authorities on surnames identified the surname and its etymology. We have artwork and legal documents (court) documents that validate the origin of the Anglo-Norman Roy surname and prove that this was used before Middle-French. You citing the word Viceroy is wrong and the professors who specialize in etymology and medieval surnames have specifically stated the name origin. Remember this is a page about the family name / name "ROY". A dictionary is being used from completely appropriate ACADEMIC / EXPERT sources.

Oxford University Press : Dictionary of American Family Names, 2nd Edition

Author Information

These are the sources for the Surname Dictionary source. Notice they are authorities on surname origins and professors specializing in this study. 209.35.39.169 (talk) 04:35, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oxford Press Academic - Dictionary of American Family Names, 2nd Edition

Institute for Name-Studies - Appointment of Peter McClure as Honorary Professor of Name-Studies

"The INS is delighted to announce the forthcoming appointment of Dr Peter McClure as Honorary Professor within the Institute for Name-Studies. Peter is an internationally-recognised pioneer of rigorous onomastic methodology, and the foremost British scholar working on medieval personal names. He is Honorary Vice-President of the English Place-Name Society and president of the Society for Name Studies in Britain and Ireland. His association with Nottingham is long-standing – he was both undergraduate and postgraduate at the University, as a student of the late Professor Kenneth Cameron, head of the Department of English and eminent place-name scholar."

Roy Surname :

"English (of Norman origin): from Old French roi ‘king’ used as a nickname (see 3 below) and also as a personal name. Compare Ray French and Walloon: from Old French rey roy ‘king’ (from Latin rex) a nickname for someone who lived in a regal fashion or who had earned the title in some contest of skill or by presiding over festivities."

Fitroy:

Irish: Anglo-Norman French patronymic from fi(t)z ‘son’ (see Fitz ) + Roy ‘king son of the king’.

- Dictionary of American Family Names 2nd edition, 2022

Not Middle-French. ANGLO-NORMAN. Pre-1400's has it in legal documents.

209.35.39.169 (talk) 04:45, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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^ "roy". Dictionary of American family names. Retrieved 22 May 2023. Leroy (2629) French: from Old French rey, roy 'king' (from Latin rex, genitive regis), with the definite article le.
^ "Le roy". Origins of the English People and the English Languages. Retrieved 23 May 2023. ...the kings of England have retained the custom of using the Old Norman language when they give the royal assent... as: Le roy le veult;

[1] "roy". Dictionary of American family names. Retrieved 22 May 2023. Leroy (2629) French: from Old French rey, roy 'king' (from Latin rex, genitive regis), with the definite article le.

[2] "Le roy". Origins of the English People and the English Languages. Retrieved 23 May 2023. ...the kings of England have retained the custom of using the Old Norman language when they give the royal assent... as: Le roy le veult;

[1]

[2]